
Osage Nation Principal Chief candidate Tim Tall Chief (right) answers a question during the Osage News Political Debates on June 23. Fellow candidate John Red Eagle listens. Photo by Chalene Toehay/Osage News
By Benny Polacca
Osage News
Osage Nation Principal Chief candidates John Red Eagle and Tim Tall Chief returned to the lecterns to answer questions during the Osage News Political Debates held June 23 in Pawhuska.
Both men received the highest number of votes in the June 7 election and will compete in the Nation’s runoff election July 19. The Osage News hosted this second candidate debate for the Principal Chief and Assistant Principal Chief runoff election candidates and asked Red Eagle and Tall Chief eight questions.
Each candidate was allowed three minutes to answer each question and allowed one minute for rebuttal, or follow-ups after both candidates answered the question.
“Since you will have to hit the ground running when you take the oath of office in August, who have you considered for your administration?”
Both candidates did not name those who could be considered for appointed positions in their cabinets. Instead, Red Eagle and Tall Chief described how they would set up their administrations in the Executive Branch, if elected.
“Right now, I would use my assistant chief as the second highest official in charge, whoever that might be, and I plan to have a senior adviser who will advise the chief and possibly the assistant chief,” Red Eagle said. “I will have a legislative analyst who will do a lot of reading and write legislation that the administration wants to do and possibly work with the legislature in their efforts to produce legislation and law.”
Red Eagle said his administration will also have a budget analyst “who will look at the budgets since we do over 100 budgets for the Nation.” He will also have a communications officer and a “government affairs person who will do most of my legwork with other governments, local governments, county governments, state government.”
Tall Chief said he believes “it’s essential that we have the finest, the most highly qualified individuals in all of the roles we have in our administration.” He said his administration would include the positions Red Eagle listed and also “legal counsel and Office of Governmental Affairs. All those things have to be a very important part of what we do. I also believe we need a chief financial officer” who will be helping manage the budgets.
“I really believe that as you look at credentials of people who are going to be in these positions, there are many, many Osage people around the country that are highly qualified… to come and do these different roles that we talked about,” Tall Chief said. “Many of them would love to come back and be a part of this Nation and I think to provide that opportunity to our highly qualified folks out there would be a great move for our Nation to do.”
If elected, Tall Chief said he also plans to establish advisory groups for tribal youth and elders “to help me to help our assistant chief and to help our administration address the needs of our young and our old.”
After Tall Chief finished answering the question, Red Eagle used his follow-up minute to say he will appoint a treasurer for the Nation as allowed by the Constitution, but did not say who that person would be. “Right now that treasurer is the second highest paid individual in the Nation and we have to look seriously at that, consider their duties, what they have to do.”
Red Eagle also said “in the past, Congress has felt that producing boards has had a negative effect at times, we really have to lobby for the boards” because government officials need to consider costs and resources to support boards.
Tall Chief responded in his follow-up minute, stating: “One of the things that’s essential for us to create, ladies and gentlemen, is a team.” He then referred to the assistant principal chief’s position as “as an essential role and part” of the Executive Branch operations.
“What are your plans for the reservation status case?”
Last month, the U.S. 10th Circuit Court of Appeals denied to rehear the Nation’s case against the Oklahoma state Tax Commission, which left the Executive Branch 90 days to make a decision on whether to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.
The nine-year-old case was first filed in 2001 in federal court in Tulsa. The case then went to the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals where it ruled in December 2007 that the Nation could proceed against individual members of the Oklahoma Tax Commission. U.S. District Judge James Payne ruled in February of 2009 that Osage Nation employees are not exempt from paying state income taxes and that Osage County is not the Osage Reservation’s boundaries. The Nation asked him to reconsider his “lousy decision,” as Principal Chief Jim Gray put it at the time, but Payne let the ruling stand. The Nation appealed to the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals again where there agreed with Payne’s ruling. The Nation asked the 10th Circuit to reconsider their decision in January of this year.
Tall Chief said “at this point, we don’t have any options… we have to keep that case alive… at this point, the only way to do that is to forward it onto the (U.S.) Supreme Court. We need to develop a brief and send it to the Supreme Court. The reason for that is simple: as long as it is alive, the state of Oklahoma has said ‘we will not come in and close your casinos because you all are in the process of trying to make them appropriate.’”
“We’re going to have about 20 days after the inauguration of chief and assistant chief to get that (brief) to the Supreme Court… we’re going to have to act fast.” Tall Chief said it could take eight months for the Supreme Court to decide whether to hear the case, so the Nation should use that time to contact state and Bureau of Indian Affairs officials to get the three casino properties, which are at issue, into trust.
Red Eagle also believes appealing the case is essential to “buy some time,” but noted “It’s my understanding that the percentage of the Supreme Court hearing a case like this is 1 percent.” He believes the Nation needs to communicate with government officials, especially those on the federal level who handle trust land applications as well as the National Indian Gaming Commission to keep the Nation’s casinos operating and to avoid hurting the gaming revenues.
“We are in a situation where we need to make some definite moves, whoever the next chief is going to be, they’re going to have some quick decisions to make,” Red Eagle said.
“With up to nearly 50 percent of our gaming revenue at risk, what is your plan to secure the growth of our tribal resources?”
If the case involving the Nation and the Oklahoma Tax Commission is ultimately lost, the Nation stands to lose gaming revenues generated from the Tulsa, Ponca City and Skiatook casinos if they are forced to close, which prompts the question on what the candidates will do to secure the growth of tribal resources.
Red Eagle referred to the Osage Limited Liability Company which was set up in 2009 to generate non-gaming income for the Nation. “They were given $7.5 million last spring” through an appropriation bill passed by Congress and have made passive investments, he said. “We have to look at that to see if they have the ability to produce some revenue for this Nation.”
If elected, Red Eagle said he will “start an internal audit department to see and assess where we are… see how our money’s being spent, see what’s wasted, what is going out that shouldn’t be going out, what is spent that shouldn’t be spent. We need people that will show us what’s wrong, where it needs to be fixed and that’s what an assessment does.”
Tall Chief said “the answer is diversification, No. 1” in referring to business opportunities which are independent from gaming. He acknowledged the LLC as Red Eagle did in his answer, but noted the Nation will not see instant revenues from the LLC efforts, so the Nation should also “pursue grants very hard.”
“Again, we tend to depend on the money that’s available at hand and we don’t sometimes pursue the grants that are out there that could replace some of the money that we’re using from casinos,” Tall Chief said. In his answer, he also said the Nation should immediately address the trust land issue affecting the three casinos at stake.
“For example, the Ponca (City) casino, that one is on wheels, it’s a double-wide on wheels,” Tall Chief said of the casino’s building structure. “There’s trust land around, there’s trust land we can perhaps purchase, that we could lease. We could pull up that casino and move it to those trust lands and it would not be in jeopardy anymore. Tall Chief said if the worse-case scenario occurs and the Tulsa casino must close, he would like to consider starting a tribal college in that casino’s building which could be an additional source of Nation revenue.
In his one-minute follow-up, Red Eagle said he’s “all for college,” but noted colleges cost money to build and casino revenue has dropped in the past two years from “$50 million-plus to $34 million… If that revenue continues to drop then we’re going to have to do some serious cutbacks, then we have to look at making money in this economy today [and it’s] a little bit harder than it was 25 years ago, so we have to look at this very seriously.”
Tall Chief said in his one-minute follow-up he believes the Nation should buy a bank because “we are generating millions of dollars and those monies are going into someone else’s bank. Believe me, when it hits their bank it doesn’t just sit there, it’s moving, it’s making them money… it needs to be in our bank, it needs to be making the Osage people money.”
“Since you will be handling the program’s budgets for the Nation when you are sworn into office, are you going to advocate to hold the Nation’s spending at 2010 levels?”
Tall Chief said the Nation should prepare two budget plans in case revenue has decreased. The first budget should have all the proposed increases in spending for government operations and cost-of-living salary increases for employees and the second budget should reflect the previous year’s budget if there is no increases in the Nation’s revenue, he said.
Red Eagle said he checked the casino revenue figure in May and believes the Nation is “below budget” for hitting the projected revenue figure of $25 million, so he supports holding government spending at 2010 levels. “From now on, I think we should look at where are we wasting our money? Where we’re spending too much, and then take that money” to build a “rainy day fund” and seek banking advice on investing it.
“If elected, will you be lifting the ‘gag order’? If so, will there be any type of communication protocol with your administration?”
This question refers to the communication protocol implemented last year by Chief Jim Gray which requires Executive Branch employees to get permission to release requested information about the branch’s operations to the Osage Nation Congress. Several tribal members have since started referring to the policy as a “gag order.”
“Yes, I will be lifting the gag order because I believe that the Nation’s revenue is the people’s revenue and an elected official has every right to see the financials,” Red Eagle said, adding he plans to develop a protocol which would be suitable for Osage citizens and tribal employees “because they are a vital part in our Nation, they need to know what’s going on.”
Tall Chief said “the gag order never should have been put in place, it’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard - to tell the employees they can’t talk to legislators, to Congressional people” about their government program’s operations and finances. “The finest, most knowledgeable people in our program areas are the people who are doing it.”
“As far as a protocol, again, I think that any congressperson and any citizen has the right to speak to any employee within this Nation as long as it’s not impeding their work responsibilities,” Tall Chief said.
“What would be the advantages and disadvantages of taking over the management of the Pawhuska Clinic? Does the Nation have the administrative capacity to effectively manage the Pawhuska (Indian Health Service) Clinic? Why or why not?
Tall Chief, who is currently the vice chairman of the Nation’s Health and Wellness Advisory Board, said he and other board members recommended the Nation take over the operations of the IHS-run clinic two years ago. A feasibility study on whether the tribe should take over the clinic was recently conducted and its results say the takeover effort “would be very appropriate,” he said.
“The finances are there, the people are there, the expertise is there and we can manage that,” Tall Chief said of the clinic feasibility study. He said the clinic should focus on its third-party billing practices to generate revenue and referred to an example from his Oklahoma State Department of Health post.
“When I was at State Health, we raised our Medicaid (our third-party billing money) from $2 million - in three years, it was to $18 million… We can bill Medicaid for the (clinic) services we are providing if our customers we are serving are eligible - we need to make sure that everybody applies.” Tall Chief believes increased clinic revenue should be used to increase clinic services and the number of staff including doctors and nurses who handle patient care.
Red Eagle said the clinic could serve more Osages by expanding the patient service area if the Nation takes over its operations because only patients living in Osage and Pawnee counties are eligible to receive care at the clinic. Compacting the clinic “would give us the revenue and right now, I believe that revenue is around $5 million to operate that clinic yearly. We would take that and we could manage that revenue in how we wanted to” run the clinic, he said.
“What is the scope of responsibilities of the chief of staff now that there is a tribal operations director?”
Red Eagle said the “current chief of staff advises the principal chief and that is primarily her job. She advises him on tribal matters, on those tribal matters dealing with other tribes… She advises him on legal counsel even though our present chief of staff is not an attorney… I believe that she writes legislation, she reads legislation, she advised the chief on whether to veto a bill or not to veto a bill, whether that bill is good or whether it’s not good, so primarily her job has been those duties over the past year since the new director of operations came on board.”
Red Eagle is referring to current Chief of Staff Hepsi Barnett who also “participates in the finances of the government” and he said he believes “she is given primarily more authority over the assistant chief at the present time.”
Tall Chief said the tribal operations director is a relatively new position, but “I’m not sure it needs to be there.” He said he is not proposing to add more positions, but he “would like to combine some roles into an existing position and add some additional responsibilities to the folks.”
“As far as the chief of staff,” said Tall Chief, “I believe the current chief of staff’s role has gone beyond its appropriate level and I really believe the role of the chief of staff is to be the assistant in every possible way to the chief. I don’t think decisions, at the magnitude that John (Red Eagle) described should be in the hands of the chief of staff. I think the chief of staff is there to manage folks, to oversee some of the operations, but to not make those kind of decisions – those decisions belong to the assistant chief and to the chief.”
“Who would you like to work with as your Assistant Principal Chief and why?”
“You’ve got to be kidding me,” Tall Chief said with a smile after the moderator read the question out loud. “Let me say this ladies and gentlemen, both of the folks that are in the running for assistant principal chief have some wonderful credentials.
“Now you understand I’m probably not going to answer this, but understand I’ve known Scott BigHorse, we’ve been in that arena for many, many years,” Tall Chief said. “I’ve danced to Scott’s songs for many, many years… he has some experience in state government. Amanda Proctor is Harvard-educated, she has a law degree, she’s an attorney, she’s done a lot of work with many, many tribes,” he said.
“I’ve spent some time with both of them, I’ve talked to them, we’ve talked about what-ifs, we’ve talked about how to move forward, how do we continue to work together,” Tall Chief said. “And I believe in my heart that I could work with either one of them and help this Nation move forward and be successful. That’s no answer, but it’s my answer,” he said with the audience reacting with laughs.
“The two individuals who made the runoff after the general election are two very qualified individuals as Tim said,” Red Eagle said. “Amanda is an attorney who would bring a lot of good things to the Nation. Scott would bring his legislative experience and I believe that because of the relationship that I’ve had with them – Scott (in the Indian culture) is actually my nephew, so I could have a little say-so over him, Amanda is probably my niece because she’s made a relationship with my father,” he said jokingly before ending with “I trust the Osage people to make the right decision.”
About 100 people came to the June 23 runoff candidates’ debate at the Wah-Zha-Zhi Cultural Center. The Osage News formed a question committee to brainstorm and develop the questions posed to the candidates who participated in the Political Debates. The debate was emceed by Susan Shannon, host of KGOU’s Indian Times and was moderated by Jim Hill, a volunteer from the League of Women Voters of Greater Tulsa.

Audience members listen to the Principal Chief candidates speak during the Osage News Political Debates on June 23 in Pawhuska. Photo by Chalene Toehay/Osage News

Principal Chief candidate Tim Tall Chief answers a question at the Osage News Political Debates on June 23 in Pawhuska. Photo by Chalene Toehay/Osage News

Principal Chief candidate John Red Eagle answers a question at the Osage News Political Debates on June 23 in Pawhuska. Photo by Chalene Toehay/Osage News

Moderator Jim Hill (green shirt) wishes the Osage Nation Principal Chief candidates John Red Eagle and Tim Tall Chief the best of luck after the candidates answer eight questions at the Osage News Political Debates on June 23 in Pawhuska. Photo by Chalene Toehay/Osage News

Osage Nation Principal Chief candidate John Red Eagle returns to his seat after answering questions at the Osage News Political Debates on June 23 in Pawhuska. Photo by Chalene Toehay/Osage News